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Mbeki: Answers to questions in Parliament
Date: 24/10/2001
Source: The Presidency
Title: Mbeki: Answers to questions in Parliament
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PRESIDENT THABO MBEKI'S ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN PARLIAMENT, 24 October 2001
(Transcription of SABC 2 broadcast)
Speaker: The first item on the order paper is questions addressed to the Honourable President of the Republic, and Question Number One has been asked by the Honourable Ms Modise. Honourable Mr President.
[Question Number 1 on the Order Paper - Ms T.R. Modise (ANC)
(1) Following the recent terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon in the United States and the subsequent military strikes on targets in Afghanistan by the USA and Britain, what is South Africa's position regarding the United States' call for a global coalition to combat terrorism;
(2) whether this will affect the Government's plan for economic and social transformation of South Africa, the Southern African region and the rest of the African continent, if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how?]
President Thabo Mbeki: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The events of 11 September 2001 and the aftermath are of course matters of the gravest concern for international safety and security.
As honourable members would know, immediately after the attacks on the United States, the South African government expressed its unequivocal condemnation of these acts of terrorism perpetrated against people of the United States, and the other citizens of other countries, including our own. Decent people throughout the world are united in their abhorrence of these heinous acts, and like the rest of the world we have called for and supported action to bring the terrorists to justice.
I would like once again to extend our sincerest condolences to the families and loved ones of all of those who are victims, including those from our own country, to the people of the United States and to all other nations whose citizens were killed or injured in the attacks, and I would like to reaffirm our belief that it is the right of the United States government to bring to justice those responsible for these acts of terror within the scope of international law and conventions and protocols.
To this end we reaffirm South Africa's commitment to co-operate with the government of the United States and the rest of the international community, within the framework of the United Nations and the laws of our country, to combat terrorism both here and abroad, so as to ensure peace and security for all humanity. Since 11 September we have been in touch with the United States and the British governments, and other concerned parties, including multilateral organisations such as the OAU, the Commonwealth, Non-Aligned Movement and the United Nations.
Working together within the context of the UN system, we will continue to make our contribution to develop relevant international conventions in the fight against terrorism. In this regard, we have supported the call for an international conference on terrorism under the auspices of the United Nations. The UN Security Council adopted a resolution on 28 September this year, which provides the outline for international co-operation to combat terrorism. We also support the African Convention on Terrorism adopted at the summit meeting of the OAU held in Algiers in 1999. We are currently preparing for the submission of this convention to Parliament for ratification. You would also know, honourable member, that the justice, crime prevention and security cluster of our government is working on a Bill to tighten our law to enable us to effectively deal with terrorism.
War by its nature is terrible. As we work together to combat terrorism, we must be precise and targeted, and ensure that as far as physically possible, innocent people are not victims. In this regard we have agreed with both the US and the British governments, that the current military campaign should be specifically targeted against the terrorists and those who shield them, that it must be of as short a duration as possible, that it should not consist of collective punishment, neither against the Afghans, nor Muslims, nor the Arab people. In this context we reject all notions of a so-called clash of civilisations.
Secondly, we must also focus on all possible root causes of these despicable acts of terror and develop strategies to address them wherever they present themselves. In this regard we must invest our energies to end all the perennial conflicts around the globe, especially the Middle East conflict.
In this regard, Madam Speaker, I would like to extend our congratulations to Sinn Fein and its leader Gerry Adams, as well as the IRA for the bold, courageous and eminently correct steps that they have taken to speed up the process of the decommissioning of weapons, and which has opened the way for the full and immediate implementation of the Good Friday agreement. I would also like to express our appreciation for the positive response to these important developments on the part of the British and Irish governments, and the Ulster Unionists, and encourage them also to show the same boldness and courage demonstrated by Sinn Fein and the IRA. We will maintain our conduct with all concerned in this matter in the interests of a just and permanent peace for the people of Ireland.
We also remain deeply concerned about the worsening situation in the Middle East. We hope that both the Israelis and the Palestinians can take example from Sinn Fein and the IRA, themselves to take the bold, courageous and eminently urgent steps that are needed to deal with this challenge
Thandi Modise, ANC: My question relates to the second part of your answer, which I have not heard. However, I am going to put it. South Africa has led with the emancipation of women in the programmes and policies. Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, leads in identifying women as the bearers of poverty. What is this government intending to do to make sure that this economic and social transformation, and the budget as put for this poverty alleviation by the European Union is actually used to alleviate rural village poverty.
President Thabo Mbeki: Honourable member, let me come back to your question, and not the new one, that you have just posed.
The attacks of 11 September do present us, honourable member, with a new world with grave risk for our own objectives in seeking to eradicate poverty on our continent and address the important matter that you have raised of the emancipation of women. Analysts have speculated whether the new issues thrust upon us concerning global security, will overshadow the development agenda, with adverse effects.
I would like to assure the honourable member that we have been working hard to ensure that our objectives for the renewal of the African continent and sustainable development for all of the developing countries are not impaired.
When we spoke at the United Nations University in Tokyo during our recent visit to Japan, we said that
"Amidst the need to respond to these attacks, we should guard against the possibility of the international community changing focus on the critical issues of our time.
"We therefore have to ensure that there is no possibility of these attacks creating negative consequences whereby developmental issues that we have been struggling with for decades, are sidelined to the margins of the global agenda.
"Clearly we need to work together between countries and across the continent to ensure that we have a common strategy that will be effective against terrorism.
"The challenges facing all of us is the ability simultaneously to deal decisively with terrorism, and effectively address and defeat poverty and underdevelopment."
And that includes the continued oppression of women.
I am very pleased, Madam Speaker, that as he addressed the British Labour Party Conference earlier this month, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair also said that
"A partnership for Africa between the developed and the developing world based around the New Africa Initiative, is there to be done, if we find the will. The state of Africa is a scar on the conscience of the world, but if the world as a community focused on, we could heal it. If we don't, it will become deeper and angrier."
That response includes this important question of the emancipation of women.
Cassie Aucamp, AEB: Mr President, the different communities in South Africa have advanced quite a long way in addressing and solving local provincial issues positively, but we run the risk that external and international issues can retract very negatively on the way South Africans from different backgrounds relate to each other. We run the risk of making their fight our fight, of drawing up that alliance against each other once more again in South Africa. Yesterday we had the example in this House, when a debate on the Palestinian issue resulted in the most hostile and unpleasant moments ever in this House. We nearly fought the Yom Kippur war over again, and the same thing can happen with this American-Afghanistan issue. What is your message as President of all the people in South Africa, to South Africans in this regard? How do you think that conflict can affect inter-relational transformation and reconciliation in South Africa, what are the pitfalls, and what guidance and direction do you want to give as President in this regard?
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Speaker, I would like to think that we, as South Africans, we are all of us united in our opposition against terrorism, and that we would want to unite as South Africans to fight terrorism both in this country and elsewhere in the world. I do not believe that that is a matter that should divide us.
I would also like to believe, Madam Speaker, that we are of one mind with regard to the matter of the need to find a just and permanent peace in the Middle East, which just and permanent peace must include the formation of an independent Palestinian State. I would like to believe that we are united about that matter as well. I would like to believe also, honourable member, that we are united in the conviction that the continuing violence amongst the Palestinians and Israelis is not going to bring about the results that all of us seek, and therefore that it is important that that matter should be addressed, and that violence should end, and the negotiations resume.
I therefore do not see why we should find it possible to fight among ourselves in pursuit of those common objectives, of what ought to be common objectives. It is important in this regard, given the role that our country plays with regard to this matter, that we are sensitive to the united voices of the people of South Africa with regard to these responses.
I must mention in this regard, Madam Speaker, as I have just said we are very pleased that the IRA and Sinn Fein took the initiative that they took. Gerry Adams came, and saw us, and consulted us about this matter, and we did advise that though this was not necessarily a requirement of the Good Friday agreement, that it would be important that such an initiative was taken. I am glad the initiative was taken. I would like to hope that South Africa is united behind that offensive to assist in finding peace for the people of Ireland, to find proper co-existence among the Irish people, and I do not believe that as we address these matters, we should be divided. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Louis Green, ACDP: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, could you inform the House whether the recent 11 September attacks on America have heightened the possibility of a threat to the internal security of South Africa, and if so, what other measures are being taken to protect the citizens of our country. Could you also, Mr President, give information whether there is any organisation within our country that has links with the terrorist groups involved in the recent attacks on America, and if so, do they pose a threat to our own internal security? Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Speaker, as the honourable members would expect, the government responded immediately to this, to look at the questions raised by the honourable member.
We do not believe that there is any internal threat in this country with regard to this matter, at least we haven't found it, and certainly we have not found anybody who was linked to those who might have carried out these terrorist attacks in the United States. We nevertheless have taken all the necessary precautions to raise levels of security at various points, and that includes our airports, to ensure that whoever might be planning to use our country for this particular purpose, is frustrated.
We have been co-operating, as I have indicated, with the US and the British governments, who sent us, particularly the US government, some detailed information that they sought in order to track down the people responsible for this. We worked on this, and still we have no evidence that anybody in our country was connected in any way to these particular attacks. But the government will continue to maintain its vigilance over this matter and I am pretty certain that we should be able to deal with anybody who would be foolish enough to attempt a similar thing here. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Corne Mulder, FF: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, I would like to return to your earlier reply to this specific question.
From the Freedom Front's stance, we welcome the government's stance in terms of supporting the global coalition against terrorism and going the international route of supporting the United Nations and their resolutions in this regard. What I would like to ask the President is this - in the end perceptions play a very important role in how these things are handled, and it is also a known fact that the President is held in high regard, not only in South Africa, but in SADC, and Africa and internationally.
I would like to come to the second part of the original question by Ms Modise, and that is, with regard to development aid and development help. Is the President prepared to take specific steps on behalf of SADC and the African continent to make sure that the perceptions that go out with regard to our continent and with regard to the need for development aid, is accepted internationally that, if I can put it this way, come out on the side in terms of fighting global terrorism with all earnestness.
The second part, Madam Speaker is this - the President mentioned the fact that he hopes and expresses the wish that it should be a short conflict. Is the President prepared, on behalf of the government, to ask the Taliban to extradite Osama bin Laden, so that this war can be ended as soon as possible?
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Speaker, the government is not in contact with the Taliban, I wouldn't know how to convey that message.
We have, since September 11, as the honourable member would know, we paid what was a highly successful state visit to Japan and we discussed precisely these questions the member raises with the Japanese government.
We also travelled to Brussels at the invitation of the leadership of the European Union, met the President of the Union, met the commission of the Union, to look at the practical implementation of what has up to now been called the New African Initiative, with regard to the same matters that the honourable member has indicated. We have agreed with the European Union with regard to those issues.
The first meeting of the committee of the G8, and our own Implementation Committee dealing with these matters, has taken place, precisely to take forward these matters that honourable member refers to.
So with regard to our interaction with the developed world, since September 11, that interaction has continued quite vigorously. We are at the stage where we are looking, with the developed countries, at the practical steps that we need to address to deal with these matters of aid, of investment, of market access, capital flows, the debt question and so on, and the developed world is engaged with us, precisely to address these matters.
Yesterday, I will come back to this later, we were at the first meeting of the Implementation Committee of the African Heads of States and Government in Abuja, and took some decisions with regard to this matter.
So that work is proceeding apace, and I must again say, Madam Speaker, it includes very centrally the issue raised by the honourable Thandi Modise, of the emancipation of women. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Speaker: We now proceed with Question Number Two on the order paper which was asked by the Honourable Meshoe
[Question No. 2 on the Order Paper - Rev K.R.J Meshoe (ACDP)
(1) Whether the Government has taken or intends taking any action to attract investors to the country so as to address the problem of unemployment; if not, why not; if so, what action;
(2) Whether the above action includes such measures as tax incentives, education policies, effective safety and security measures and an efficient judicial system; if so, what are the relevant details? ]
President Thabo Mbeki: I would like to reply to both questions from the honourable member simultaneously.
Promoting investment to foster economic development and job creation have been key policy objectives of this country, and since my last State of the Nation address when I spoke about the government's integrated economic action plan to accelerate economic growth by improving the competitiveness of our economy, government has resolutely promoted both foreign and domestic investment.
In this regard, Madam Speaker, I would like to advise the honourable member to make a closer study of the South African economy, to understand the place and role of foreign investment in this economy. I agree fully that foreign investment is critical to our success in building a modern, dynamic, growing and internationally competitive economy. The foreign investors bring in capital, they bring in modern technology, modern management practices, access to international markets, among other things.
Nevertheless, honourable member, we must understand the reality that the bulk of new investment in our economy comes from domestic investors. As we address the two important matters of the growth of the economy, and the creation of jobs, we must therefore look at both the domestic and the foreign investors. The issues that the honourable member mentions, such as tax incentives, human resource development and so on, are relevant to all investors, both domestic and foreign.
In the State of the Nation address to which I have just referred, I announced a programme of managed liberalisation of the energy, telecommunications and transport sectors, to reduce or lower the input costs throughout the economy and in order to remove constraints on high growth areas. Large infrastructure projects around energy and telecommunications would combine appreciably to increase investment. The focus is on programmes boosting investments and infrastructure, and provides designs to facilitate and stimulate private sector investment that helps to create jobs and alleviate poverty. The state corporations are themselves involved in these programmes.
The government is also directly involved in infrastructure investment, in particular to improve the lives of the millions who were disadvantaged by colonialism and the apartheid system. In addition, the government will focus on interventions to unlock the high growth potential of tourism, agriculture, selected export sectors, cultural industries such as television and film, formation and communication technology, seeking to draw new investment into all of these sectors.
Accordingly, Madam Speaker, the Department of Trade and Industry is spearheading the development of Industrial Development Zones as part of the overall key development nodes, called Special Development Initiatives, to encourage international competitiveness of a South African based manufacturing sector, and to generate sustainable economic growth and development and employment creation in the long term. This provision of world-class infrastructure will make this area one of the most attractive investment destinations in the world. This will no doubt have spill overs to socio-economic factors such as the transfer of skills, foreign exchange earnings and technology transfers.
The more short-term strategies that the government has employed to attract investment include
- Promoting the country aggressively as an attractive investment destination through a high profile international marketing campaign, through Trade and Investment South Africa's economic representatives based in over 46 important countries around the world - and through the recently formed International Marketing Council, which will facilitate the positive branding of South Africa internationally.
- The ongoing work of the International Investment Council, which was established last year, and which draws and which enables us to draw on the insights and wisdom of distinguished international business leaders and experts, to promote South Africa as an investment destination, is one of the key initiatives in which government is involved.
- Reducing the cost of business for small and medium size companies is improving by, among other things, the institution of transport and logistic systems so as to encourage firms to invest far more in training their employees, while improving industrial training systems.
- The new investment schemes, which include the small and medium enterprise development programme, the strategic investment programme, the skills support programme, and the critical infrastructure facility, seek to attract investment projects, that would otherwise locate somewhere else in the world. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Reverend Meshoe: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, you have on a number of occasions addressed audiences of investors and potential investors at both domestic and international level. Declarations of intent resulted in many such interactions, yet most of these interactions have not translated into jobs for our people. The reality is that more jobs are being lost than are created. Some of the potential investors cite the cost of labour, existing exchange controls and high crime levels as root factors to investment. How would government address these concerns in order to attract more direct investment, as the problem of unemployment will not be solved without the active participation in the economy of both domestic and foreign investors. I thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: The honourable Meshoe is clearly talking to people that I am not talking to, because it is not difficult to give a report to the honourable member, I can do it afterwards, of the investment that has taken place in this economy over the last 12 months, and he would see that the interactions in which the government is involved are producing the results that we are looking at, and I am quite certain that we will get more of those. Even now when we were in Japan, we had important discussions with some of the major Japanese corporations and indeed focused on particular investment opportunities, and I am sure there would be movement. So I am saying that perhaps we are talking to different people.
But I have been talking, Madam Speaker, about supply side measures that are intended to bolster productivity and performance, so addressing matters that the honourable member is talking about, to make them internationally competitive, and to create the jobs that this country clearly needs.
One of the important elements in this regard relates to our current macroeconomic strategies, which provide economic and fiscal stability, including focusing on inflation targeting, lower interest rates, balance of payment levels, and dealing with the matter of the budget deficit. We will persist in the position that we have taken with regard to this, and they are very important, with regard to creating that positive climate for the growth of this economy.
Improving basic education after matric level to help redress the severe skills shortage, is another matter. The national human resources strategy of the government addresses this issue of the shortages of skilled labour and the need to improve the quality of our education. There are practical measures, as the honourable member knows, the SETAs, the Umsobomvu Fund, which are addressing these issues.
Ken Andrews, DP: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There are some fairly simple underlying economic facts. South Africa's growth rate is unsatisfactorily low, the value of the Rand is down 20% this year, and it has depreciated substantially over the past five years, and South Africans themselves are not saving enough. It is hardly surprising that South Africa is not attracting the foreign direct investment which we need, and on the scale on which we need it. Government gives reasons, makes excuses and blames everyone but themselves for our economic under performance. Last year, government gave reasons, made excuses, and blamed everyone else but themselves for our economic under performance, and the year before, and the year before. I would like to ask the honourable President - does he believe that South Africa can achieve growth rates of 6% or more to reduce unemployment and poverty? If so, when, and what is going to change to cause our economic growth to increase significantly, and if not, what is government going to do to reduce the unacceptably high levels of unemployment. Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: To deal with the serious questions that the honourable Meshoe raised, I will come back to his question.
The government continues to address the issue of security in South Africa vigorously, and has in place an effective crime prevention programme. The government's national crime prevention strategy focuses on a number of areas, and indeed I am sure the honourable member would have seen that greater efforts are being devoted to the implementation of integrated multi agency and local crime prevention strategies, an element of which is the establishment of the metropolitan police services.
There are various other innovations taking place within the justice system, which seek to address the matter of quicker, speedier dispensation of justice as an important part of the process of dealing with the issue of safety and security in our country.
The government, honourable member, has also introduced a number of tax incentives to bolster economic development and increase investment in the country. As you would know, the general corporate tax rates have been reduced, implementation of strategic investment incentives and employment tax credit are intended to make this country that favourable investment destination. And lastly, a tax depreciation rate that was introduced last year, is intended to stimulate investments in assets by private companies. Businesses operating in South Africa can be reimbursed for monies used in refurbishing or purchasing plants and machinery.
Steps, honourable member, are being taken to improve the quality and focus of government services on such matters as property and company registration, and customs and excise.
Thus you can see, honourable member, that over a very wide front, the government is forging ahead with strategies to foster investments, both domestic and foreign, to tackle unemployment and other critical challenges that lie ahead of us, and we would like to appeal to local enterprise to respond to this favourable situation.
Jean Benjamin, ANC: Comrade President, do you agree that domestic investment is critical in addressing the problems of unemployment? In your address to the nation at the opening of parliament, you referred to a shift in the main focus of government from the pursuit of macro-economic stability to micro-economic reform. Could you give more detail on those aspects of micro-economic reform that would contribute towards improving the climate for both domestic and foreign investment and thus improve job creation?
President Thabo Mbeki: Indeed, honourable members, the matters of the micro-economic responses to our economy are precisely the matters that I have just raised. The matters that we have raised about lowering the cost that have to be borne by people who are involved in productive activity is part of that. That infrastructure investment programme is part of that. The system of tax incentives is part of that. Those are the micro-economic responses that we have been deeply engaged in.
What has to happen with this economy with regard to meeting this demand for higher rates of growth for the modernisation of the economy, for increasing its level of competitiveness, for its job creation, are these variety of matters that I have mentioned. There is no single intervention that can be made that will result in our addressing all of these issues. So it is a combination of all of these matters that I have mentioned, that would address these matters that the honourable Andrew raised. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Speaker: We now proceed with Question Number Three on the Order Paper which is raised by the Honourable Mulder
[Question No. 3 on the Order Paper - Dr P.W.A. Mulder (FF)
Whether there are any set guidelines in accordance with the New African Initiative (MAP) for Africa in terms of which African States can be measured to determine to what extent they are democratic and recognise human rights; if so, what are the relevant details?]
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Speaker, as the honourable members would know, I will be addressing this Assembly on what has been called the New African Initiative by the end of this month. Accordingly we will provide more details with regard to this matter at that time. I should report that at its meeting yesterday, the Implementation Committee of that initiative decided on the final name of that initiative, not the working name, the New African Initiative. From now onwards it will be known as the New Partnership for Africa's Development.
One of the priority areas identified in that New Partnership addresses issues of conflict resolution and stability, peace and security, good governance and respect for human rights, as necessary conditions for the sustainable recovery and development of the African continent. The Constitutive Act of the African Union further commits all leaders of the African continent to ensure that these principles are adhered to. The African Union further provides for mechanisms for conflict resolution, prevention resolution, peace and security.
A key distinguishing feature of both the African Union and the new partnership for Africa's development, is a strong commitment of African leaders to these principles. As a result, Madam Speaker, we are confident that these principles will be respected and used as an adequate measure, a measure of progress that African countries make towards a sustainable economic development.
As you know, the Implementation Committee of Heads of State and Government, as I have said just now, met in Abuja yesterday to discuss details concerning the implementation of the new partnership. The meeting re-emphasised the critical importance of the matters referred to by the honourable member.
Accordingly it constituted a sub-committee of heads of state and government to make proposals about how we should approach the matters raised by the honourable member, to ensure that we do make progress in all of the areas concerned. This will necessarily entail an agreement on protocol, defining what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behaviour on the part of all of our governments.
Necessarily it will have to address the issue of the ways and means that we will need and use to ensure compliance with the provisions that would be included in the protocol. In this context, the meeting of the Implementation Committee emphasised the need for peer review of government activities on the continent, to ensure that we act collectively and successfully to address issues of democracy, of human rights, of peace and stability.
South Africa was asked to convene and chair this sub-committee and report to the Implementation Committee not later than four months from now. Of course, Madam Speaker, we will co-ordinate with the OAU in carrying out this work, as part of giving effect to the objectives being pursued in the context of the African Union.
I must also make the point that we also have a watchdog African Commission of Human and Peoples Rights, that is part of the architecture that constitutes the new African institutions for development and renewal.
Similarly, the Constitutive Act of the African Union provides for the establishment of an African Court of Justice, which may also serve as one of the instruments available to the continent to address the issue of good governance.
Accordingly, our first objective is to ensure that all our countries faithfully observe the standards spelled out in our Constitutive Act and in the New Partnership. I believe, Madam Speaker, that the measures I have mentioned will go a long way towards enabling all of us to identify and act against bad practices.
I think I should mention in this context that the Implementation Committee yesterday also discussed the important matter of good economic governance, and also then agreed that there should be established a task team which again within four months must report on the ways and means that we need to ensure as the African continent that we observe those rules of good economic governance. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Pieter Mulder, FF Leader: Mr President, I recently had talks in London at the British Foreign Office, on two subjects. I discussed the Afrikaner's position in South Africa and specific farm murders, and secondly I discussed your New African Initiative. I told the British that we support this initiative and how important it is to our continent Africa to succeed in this sense and become relevant again in world politics. I believe real democracy, protecting minorities and human rights, are important preconditions for real stability and economic growth in South Africa and in Africa. In this regard, Zimbabwe stays a problem. Yesterday, newspaper sellers in Zimbabwe were stopped because they sold private newspapers. When you measure Zimbabwe against these guidelines we have been asking about, does the President think they will abide, and if not, what can we do to prevent Zimbabwe sabotaging the New African Initiative? I thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: The British Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary serves on the Commonwealth Ministerial Committee charged with the task of dealing with Zimbabwe. I don't know if the honourable member, since he was in the British Foreign Office, had the possibility to ask the Honourable Jack Straw this question, because it really does belong in part to the Commonwealth Foreign Ministers Committee, who are planning to visit Zimbabwe shortly. And I know that some of the matters that they want to address are precisely the matters that the honourable member is raising.
The honourable member also knows that the SADC has set up its own similar task team to deal with this question, and for which reason we all of us went to Zimbabwe to discuss these matters with the Zimbabwean government, the opposition party and other people in Zimbabwe. President Muluzi, who leads us in this regard, is constituting the follow up committee that must deal with all of these matters in detail.
So I would say both SADC and the Commonwealth, and South Africa are part of both of those initiatives, are committed to the pursuit of these objectives that the honourable members may have mentioned, and I would imagine that both organisations would want to pursue those matters with the greatest possible vigour. South Africa will contribute what it can to the success of those processes. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Boy Geldenhuys, NNP: Madam Speaker, it was reported that the honourable President could originally not attend yesterday's New African Initiative summit in Nigeria, because he needed to prepare for questions in Parliament. Now that in itself is a very strong message, because unfortunately the whole notion of a President accountable to Parliament is yet a strange phenomena to many countries in Africa, also those who want to become part of the New African Initiative. My question to the honourable President is, in your view sir, Zimbabwe's announced returned to socialism - What impact will that have on the New African Initiative?
President Thabo Mbeki: I have a bit of a problem with regard to this, Madam Speaker, because unlike the honourable member, I do not know what is meant by socialism in this particular context and therefore have no way of measuring what its impact would be on these processes that we are dealing with, with regard to the African continent. If I knew a bit more, perhaps as much as he knows about this matter, I might be able to comment on this.
But I think that what is critically important with regard to Zimbabwe, is that Zimbabwe must address all of these questions that have been raised: of peace and stability in this country; of an end to the conflict; dealing with the issue of the land redistribution within the context of the law; absence of conflict; and addressing these very, very serious issues that face the economy of Zimbabwe, in a serious way. It is important that all of those matters are addressed in Zimbabwe.
I think they are important for the people of Zimbabwe in the first instance, and certainly as this government we are very interested that the Zimbabwean government does deal with those questions.
As to what socialism in this context means, I haven't the slightest idea, and I wouldn't know what impact it would have on the processes of the renewal of the African continent. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Colin Eglin, DP: The President was saying that South Africa has been asked to head a committee to start defining or sharpening the issue of democracy, human rights and the rule of law, for inclusion in a protocol. That of course is fundamental because it is seen as a prerequisite for any sustained development and human development in Africa. But what I want to know from the honourable President is: has the South African government itself got a sharp definition of what is meant with these three terms in the African context? I thought they had, until in a recent debate his honourable Foreign Minister indicated that a country like Cuba would qualify as being democratic, would qualify as respecting human rights and would qualify for having the rule of law. Now if that is the attitude of the Minister, is that the kind of sharp definition that is going to be put into the protocols, which would operate under the NAI?
President Thabo Mbeki: Yes, the honourable member is correct. I did say that the Implementation Committee asked South Africa to chair and convene this sub- committee to deal with these questions.
The task of drafting the protocols, deciding what they contain, will therefore not be a sovereign prerogative of the South African government, it will come from the committee. The South African government will be guided in that work by existing documents. As I've indicated, and as this House knows, this House approved the Constitutive Act establishing the African Union. That Constitutive Act includes elements of this matter. That is part of what would form our approach to this process. I've indicated that there exists on the African continent a Commission on Human and People's Rights, of some standing, that has been around for some time. That has to define also the approach of the South African government with regard to this issue.
The provisions contained in the document that was adopted by the Heads of State of the OAU in Lusaka in July, with regard to what was then called the New Africa Initiative, also contains provisions with regard to this matter. And therefore, from our point of view as this government, would be governed by those provisions, as well as the conventions that we have approved from the United Nations human rights convention, the declaration and others which deal with these issues. So that would be our approach to this work.
The outcome of the work of this particular group is not exclusively dependent, as I was saying, on ourselves. It will depend on what the committee as a whole decides, but from the point of view of the South African government, those are the positions that would inform our approach. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Dumisani Sithole, ANC: Arising from the response, comrade President, that you have given earlier, and to earlier questions, the New African Initiative, noting the fact that it has been given a new name, is an African initiative that shall require the co-operation of the international community to be successful. And yet, at the present moment, it seems that developed countries are now preoccupied with what happened after September 11.
To what extent does the notion of the G8 of the South dovetail with the MAP strategy, and what specific roles have other developed countries been assigned, taking into cognisance the fact that the Implementation Committee has just met and a task team has been set up to work out the details, and considering that countries like Malaysia, China and Saudi Arabia have disposable resources that could be invested in the continent. Taking that into cognisance and the fact that the new sub-committee is there to develop the details, in the broad concept, how do you see the situation developing?
President Thabo Mbeki: The honourable member might be aware that while we were in Brussels, the Prime Minister of Brussels, Mr Hofstadt, currently the President of the European Union, raised the matter of the need to restructure the G8, and said that he believed that it would be incorrect to continue to allow a situation where the developed countries meet on their own and decide on their own exclusively what happens to the rest of the world.
I agreed with the Belgian Prime Minister that we do need to restructure this, so that where you have an institution of this kind, it must be properly representative of all the peoples of the world. Therefore I know that there are other people within the developed world who are of the same mind, that we need to restructure the G8 so that it becomes a bigger and more representative body, and I am quite certain that in time it is a matter that will come about. It is related to the processes going on for the restructuring of the United Nations.
But I must also say that as I have indicated earlier, the response up to now of the developed world to the African challenges has been a positive one. Even in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of September 11, the developed world has not shown any inclination to walk away from the challenges of African development that we are, all of us, familiar with.
So I am pretty convinced that we would continue to work with them in the partnership that we seek to address this matter, and I am equally convinced that we will get into a situation where you get both the developed and the developing countries working together in a structured, institutionalised way, to help jointly to determine the fate of the world. Thanks Madam Speaker.
Speaker: We now proceed with Question Number Four on the Order Paper which was asked by the Honourable Ngwenya.
[Question No. 4 on the Order Paper - Mrs M.L. Ngwenya (ANC)
(1) Whether the restructuring of Ministries into clusters has had a positive effect on the delivery of social services; if so,
(2) Whether the Government will now allocate a greater portion of the Budget to social spending; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details]
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Speaker, the restructuring of ministries into clusters as part of the integrated approach to government has significantly improved the provision of services in a number of ways. It has enhanced co-ordination and implementation of the programmes of the government. We seek to ensure that we indeed have what has been described as a seamless government.
One striking example of the success on the ground of this approach is the establishment of Multi-Purpose Community Centres aimed at bringing government closer to the people. At least six services are required before such a Multi-Purpose Community Centre can be established and by the end of the year 2003, there will be 60 of these throughout our country.
Last week I launched the fourteenth centre at Sterkspruit in the Eastern Cape, during our Imbizo visit to that province. That facility in Sterkspruit includes a district council and environmental officer; the Sheriff of the Court; a Social Development office to handle social grants, Home Affairs services; government communication and information services, and labour related services. There is also a tele-centre managed by the local authority which gives people access to fax, telecommunications and Internet facilities, but also does training in computer skills for small business purposes. The manager of the multi-purpose centre also handles all queries relating to the local authority.
Thus, Madam Speaker, the system gives the public, particularly in remote areas, the chance to visit one stop centres, which help them to meet as many of their needs as possible.
And I should mention that this particular multi-purpose centre is in the Ukahlamba District of the Eastern Cape, which is one of our nodes in terms of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme.
And that rural programme, as well as urban renewal programme, as the honourable member would know, is co-ordinated through the Minister of Provincial and Local Government, precisely so that we can work together at all levels of government, from the clusters of ministers to provincial government and local municipalities, to make the most effective use of our resources, to benefit those most in need.
Another example of the integrated approach to government is the way that government addresses support for children. This is based on a basket of services, starting with free health care for children up to six years, and a child support grant after seven years. As they enter the school system, at seven years, other social services, such as the school feeding scheme, come into operation.
Another emerging area of integration is in Land, Housing and Agriculture. Significant planning and other efficiencies are being achieved through better co-ordination between these departments.
In the four years from 1994, social spending grew strongly, and then stabilised by 1999, but it is expected to grow in the coming years.
As honourable members know, a large part of the portion of the money spent on social services is channelled through the provincial governments. These governments and local councils constitute therefore the delivery mechanisms for these services. Taken as a whole, social services - health, education, and welfare - remain a major priority of government at all levels. Over the three-year Medium Term Expenditure Framework period, the amount that the provincial governments spend on social services average about 81 per cent of their budgets.
We spend more on education than most countries of the developing world, and our social security net, which includes social grants and pensions, is amongst the most comprehensive in the developing world. I think as a country we should be rightly proud of that.
However, delivery of these services depends not only on how much money we spend on them, but on the efficiency and effectiveness in the way we use our resources. It is largely for this reason that we reorganised cabinet portfolios into clusters, so that service provision is streamlined and so that government functions are not duplicated. In other words, in so doing we are striving for better value for money.
The government believes that it is necessary in dealing with issues of poverty and underdevelopment that we balance our spending on social services and infrastructure development and economic development to achieve a healthy educated nation, where people have jobs and security.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Makwena Ngwenya, ANC: Comrade President, I am very encouraged by your reply. Am I right in believing that the projects that are to be launched in my own constituency are a reflection of our government's commitment to rural development? There are many examples. At the Flag Boshielo Dam R4,7 million has been given to the local community for an eco-tourism project. The community has already started erecting a fence around the dam and the building of the ablution blocks and administration block. There are also in Elandskraal cultural projects. The cattle owners at Magalte village who own 750 heads of cattle received R1,7 million for their projects - they are starting to erect fences for their grazing camps. Bulk water supply to the villages is perhaps our biggest achievement - 56 villages will benefit from it.
Comrade President, will the government continue to support this kind of project to prove that the ANC is delivering? I thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: Yes indeed, Madam Speaker, the government is very determined to ensure that we implement the programmes that are focussed on rural development, and that includes many things.
One of the matters that I might have mentioned earlier, is a very interesting project in a locality in Qumbu, in a place called Tsilitwa. Minerals and Energy brought electricity to this place, as a result of which in a rural village, very rural, the community, working together with the CSIR and Science and Technology, were able to bring in computers and the Internet. As a consequence science and maths education is taking place in the township in the location of Tsilitwa in Qumbu, and the schools in this area are in Internet communications with schools in the United Kingdom.
The nursing sister responsible for the district clinic, who is unable to deal with particular diseases, uses a digital camera to take a picture of the patient and e-mails the picture to Umtata General Hospital and the consultants there are able to advise her on how to deal with the patient.
In this locality, trade and industry and labour have also assisted to establish vocational training facilities in carpentry, brick-making, construction, and those projects are going on now, and the Internet facility is being used to assist small business people to engage in business in a wider scale.
So to these projects and the ones that we have mentioned, most definitely, the government will lend its fullest support. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Bantu Holomisa, UDM: Deputy Madam Speaker, the President. Will the government consider making a special allocation within the social cluster to address the much talked about pandemic of HIV/AIDS, and in doing so acknowledge and give weight to the importance of this disease that affects every citizen of South Africa in every aspect of their lives? Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Deputy Speaker, as the honourable member knows, the government has got a comprehensive programme to deal with this matter, and the government's responses to the issue of AIDS are governed by that programme. Therefore the government would do whatever is required with regard to that programme, and there are allocations that have been made. The honourable member will know that the special fund voted in the context of the national budget with regard to this, and I do not believe that at this moment that the government is going to do anything to change the policy position that is announced in this regard. Thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Adriaan van Jaarsveld, NNP: Madam Deputy Speaker, more and more South Africans are starting to wonder whether the President and the ANC are living in the same country as the rest of us, who are acknowledging the reality of the plight of the children of this country, and I want to quote from The Star of 18 October: "People are dying of hunger in the rural areas of the Northern Province. Villages are being ravaged by poverty with many adults dying and leaving their families, in most cases the children, to fend for themselves. One has to be reminded that the scenes of famine and disease being played out in these villages are not in Ethiopia or Angola, but in South Africa. Apart from living in dire poverty, children are orphaned by AIDS, faceless discrimination and abuse at all levels within the communities, at schools, and when attempting to access health and social services."
Now my question to the honourable President is that it is common knowledge that the President refuses to acknowledge the reality of AIDS. The question is, is the President willing to acknowledge the reality these children are suffering, and what is the government going to do about this. I thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very, very pleased, indeed that the honourable member is beginning to learn something about South Africa. And perhaps we need to thank the media for giving him the education.
There are high levels of poverty; there are high levels of poverty in this country. The children of this country indeed suffer. Many sections of our population experience terrible levels of poverty; a terrible impact of the diseases of poverty; terrible levels of under development.
I am very, very pleased that the member read this edition of The Star, to expose him to this reality. The tragedy of it is that the honourable member has come to know of this within the last fortnight. If the member had paid some attention to the history of this country and where we come from, he would know where this problem derives from. He would also understand that this is a task that I am quite certain, faces all of us in South Africa, and I would really be very pleased if at some point the honourable member would say, 'I have now recognised the tragedy, this is what I am doing about it.' It would be extremely useful. Thank you, Madam Deputy.
Cheryllyn Dudley, ACDP: Honourable President, if as it seems to most South Africans that South Africa does not have the resources to meet the requirements of adequate social service delivery, shouldn't the priorities of the President and government be focussed on these issues? A new Boeing for the President, lavish reception rooms at the airports, extravagant parties regularly thrown by premiers and mayors, white elephants like Coega proceeding before the completion of impact studies, arms deals, repeated scrapping of education programmes etcetera, unfortunately gives the impression that there is a squandering of resources and misplaced opulence amidst a sea of poverty. How will the President address this perception? Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: I think what the honourable member needs to do is to focus on the truth and not perception. That might help her to deal with this matter. Thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Deputy Speaker: We now come to Question Number Five on the order paper addressed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to the Honourable President.
[Question No. 5 on the Order Paper - The Leader of the Opposition (DP)
(1) Whether, in light of the Medical Research Council's report that an estimated 40% of deaths among 15-49 year-olds in 2000 was due to HIV/AIDS, he will review his request to the Minister of Health on 6 August 2001 to re-evaluate health expenditure according to statistics compiled in 1995 on the leading causes of deaths in South Africa; if not, why not; if so,
(2) whether he will advise the Minister to increase spending on HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment in light of new evidence contained in the MRC report: The Impact of HIV/AIDS on Adult Mortality in South Africa; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?]
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Deputy Speaker, in order properly to respond to the needs of South Africans, the government constantly evaluates all of its programmes to ensure that they remain relevant to our changing realities.
We adopt the same approach in respect of programmes to address the health needs of our population. It was within this context that I asked the Minister of Health to examine the latest known statistics on the numbers and causes of deaths in South Africa, and to advise government on whether the government is responding correctly to the picture painted by those statistics.
The social cluster of Ministers is looking into that matter.
Our health expenditure, Madam Deputy Speaker, is informed, among others, by the health profile of the population, which includes the burden of disease in the country; by policy choices, such as the need to focus on primary health care; by fiscal constraints and by mortality rates.
I am informed that the MRC report that the honourable member refers to does not fully address the issues I raised in my letter to the Minister, since it seems to have addressed only one cause of death, namely AIDS.
I am also informed that the information set out in that report, is being evaluated by an inter-departmental task team, led by Statistics South Africa, as well as the Presidential AIDS Advisory Panel. The MRC is part of that inter-departmental task team, as are members of the MRC members of that advisory panel.
The reports from these processes are still outstanding, and therefore we are not considering any reapportionment of funding until that social cluster of Ministers and these other processes are concluded. We will then decide as to how to proceed with regard to this matter.
Thank you Deputy Speaker.
The Leader of the Opposition (DP): Madam Deputy Speaker, will the honourable President not acknowledge that the total expenditure in our national and provincial budgets on AIDS amounts to only 0.6% of the total health budget, and in view of the pandemic sweeping South Africa, does he regard that, regardless of the statistical base which he is using a model, as being remotely adequate to the emergency of the situation, or its urgency?
Secondly, could I ask the President the following. In his letter to the Minister of Health, which is the subject of this question, he said that these were the latest available statistics on causes of death for the particular web page on which they appear, although the honourable President did qualify that assumption, but would he also accept that on the same World Health Organisation web page, there is a more recent report published by the World Health Organisation in conjunction with UN AIDS, which estimates that 250,000 South Africans died of AIDS in 1999, making AIDS by far the leading cause of death in our country.
Would the honourable President therefore not refer the Health Minister to those more recent statistics on the UN AIDS WHO web site? And in fact, if the President has already referred one set of statistics, will he not refer the other as well?
President Thabo Mbeki: I would be quite happy, Madam Speaker, to refer these statistics to which the honourable member refers to the Minister of Health. I would in fact hope that the Minister of Health has seen them herself. I have absolutely no problem with referring those statistics to her, and it might help if the Minister of Health hasn't seen them, which I haven't, that the honourable member does the same. I think we need to look at all of these statistics, whoever is issuing them. I haven't seen these particular statistics that he honourable member refers to, but I certainly will have a look, and I will refer them to the Minister of Health.
The statistics that were used, appeared for all countries of the world. They were not just about South Africa. They were about all member states of the WHO. The set of statistics, which went up to around, for some countries up to 1998, some countries 1995, some countries 1996, the WHO said were at that time the latest national statistics available to them.
But certainly, I think that if there is any other information on this matter that needs to be looked at, by the Minister of Health, by Statistics South Africa, by everybody else, then those statistics should be made available so that we do get as accurate a picture of what is happening as possible. I have no problem with that.
As I have indicated, we want to have a proper profile of the incidence of disease in this country. The government is not an NGO focussed on one particular disease. We are not a TB NGO, or an AIDS NGO, or a pneumonia NGO. We are concerned about the health of our people and the incidence of disease and mortality comprehensively.
We need to have a look at that so that we can see whether our programmes are correct, and those programmes do not consist only of response with drugs and medicines. They must include improving the general health condition of our people, which includes nutrition; which includes clean water; which includes addressing all of these things; which includes the question of the violence in this society. We have to look at all of those questions and therefore make sure that our spending, not only in health, but generally throughout government, responds to that particular health profile. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Ruth Rabinowitz, IFP: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Through you to the honourable President. Mr President, in spite of the government's comprehensive AIDS action plan, its overall spending of about R8 billion to promote AIDS prevention, our policies are not finding their targets with sufficient accuracy, and even those who question the report will not argue with the evidence that AIDS deaths are escalating. Most of the R320 million to be spent on AIDS this year, goes into prevention and education, and government claims that it lacks the budget to support treatment of people with AIDS or pregnant women, but we have not accepted offers of free medication, or put out tenders for supplies to government, or established partnerships with private companies or foreign governments, to offer treatment under certain circumstances. Nor have we made concerted efforts to do more widespread testing and inform people of their results. Will this report change the government's approach to include some of these measures?
President Thabo Mbeki: I am not quite sure what report the honourable member refers to.
I have said that there's a task team of government, led by Statistics South Africa, to look at the totality of the health profile in this country, focusing in particular on the mortality statistics, to get as clear a picture as is possible of an answer to the question - What are these things that are killing our people? How many people are dying, from what, so that the government can then respond as accurately as possible to that actuality of the South African situation. No doubt, once that matter is established, the processes in which the social cluster of ministers is involved, will no doubt be informed by what comes out of that. I have said that the scientific AIDS panel is continuing its work and in the last few days the scientists met from both sides of the divide, further to work on the experiment that they decided should be carried out. They will continue with that work, and that work will also inform what government does.
We are not engaging in this matter as an academic exercise but in order to ensure that as government we respond in a targeted and effective way to these matters that cause ill health among our people, that cause death among our people. So yes indeed, honourable member, whatever comes out of those particular processes will inform government policy.
Abe Nkomo, ANC: I am glad to hear from the President that the government's approach to HIV and AIDS is an approach about people and not merely about statistics, that while statistics are good, are important for evaluation for monitoring and so on, but that it is essentially about people, and that it is this policy which has induced Steven Lewis, the United Nations envoy, who responded positively on the high levels of awareness about HIV and AIDS in South Africa, and that same policy which has placed South Africa at the epicentre of the HIV and AIDS approach in SADC, the African Union and also internationally, and that therefore it not being about numbers that the President assured us that this comprehensive policy will not be reduced by reductionist views, but will continue to deal with all the comprehensive issues, which are about the saving of life. I would like to hear the President's response.
President Thabo Mbeki: The honourable member, the numbers are important. We need to have as clear a picture as is possible of what illnesses our people suffer from. It is important, because our responses have got to be governed by that reality. The health of our people, I do not believe should become a matter of political, ideological campaigns. It is a matter that requires a very, very serious response and a very focused response to produce better results.
And indeed, as the honourable member says, in our interaction with the international organisations, they are very appreciative of the work that our country and government are doing to deal with what is in fact a very difficult health situation. In many respects not very different from the situation that is experienced by the majority of Africans throughout our continent.
But we must respond to this from an informed position. I do not believe that we should treat any health condition as a matter of superstition or religious belief. The science is important with regard to this, an understanding of the actuality so that we respond positively.
Reference was made to treatment with regard to AIDS, a very contentious question. I've said to the Minister of Health, have we looked at the radically revised guidelines from the US government issued at the beginning of this year, about treatment with anti-retroviral drugs, where they have said that these drugs are becoming as dangerous to health as the thing they are supposed to treat. We have to look at all of these matters, not as a matter of religious belief, as matters about which you campaign in the street, but as matters on which you focus properly and accurately in order to save our people from ill health and to save them from unnecessary disease. I think that is important.
Patricia De Lille, PAC: Honourable President, arising out of your response, I want to agree that treatment for HIV and AIDS is not only anti-retroviral drugs. It includes immune boosting supplements, mother to child transmission, opportunistic infections, and all of those, but I have got one question, Mr President, and that is one of the reasons used by government for not providing anti-retroviral drugs, he said it is too toxic. Now why is it toxic only for the poor people of this country who cannot afford it, but it is not toxic for many members of Parliament who are using the same anti-retroviral drugs? Why are we not taking it off the shelves of the pharmacies and the doctors if it is so toxic, so that nobody must have access to anti-retroviral drugs? Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: Undoubtedly, Madam Deputy Speaker, if these drugs are toxic, they are toxic for everybody, including members of parliament. I don't know how any conclusion can be reached that they are not toxic for members of parliament. I don't think they have got a particular biology for members of parliament. Maybe they might have a particular psychology, but I don't think that would save them from particular toxicities.
Honourable De Lille, I really do hope you would study this issue. The US government, at the beginning of this year, as I have just mentioned it, radically revised the guidelines for the use of anti-retroviral drugs, and they said part of the reason they did this is because experience has shown them that these drugs have toxicities which have not been foreseen. They radically revised the use of this drug. They further issued other guidelines as to what needs to happen before you dispense any such drugs, a very, very detailed brief of what the doctors should do before they dispense this.
Because of these concerns, I can tell the honourable member where to get those guidelines on the web site of the Centre for Disease Control in the United States. You would see that when these matters are dealt with by people who are serious and approach this thing from the point of health of the people, not propaganda, not religious faith, that there are very many complex questions which we have to deal with, and that includes everything that needs to be done before any doctor can responsibly dispense these drugs. I would hope that if any members of parliament are taking those drugs, they need to have a look at that so as to advise their own medical practitioners as to how to proceed. Otherwise they are going to suffer negative consequences. That is real, and that is actual. It is not a matter of propaganda. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Deputy Speaker: We now come to Question Number Six, which is addressed by the Honourable Mbuyazi to the Honourable President.
[Question No. 6 on the Order Paper] - Ms L.R. Mbuyazi (IFP)
(1) Whether the nodal growth points that have been identified by the Government have shown any tangible economic and social results; if so, what are the salient success features of the policy; if not,
(2) whether any impediments have been encountered; if so, what are the relevant details?
President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Deputy Speaker, the growth and development programmes of the government, which are located in the identified nodal development and growth points, are well known to everybody in this house. These relate to SDIs, to Industrial Development Zones, the urban renewal programmes and the rural development programmes. All of these programmes are designed to improve the socio-economic life of our people, particularly in those areas which the apartheid system consigned to poverty.
All of the rural nodes, Madam Deputy Speaker, have completed an Interim Integrated Development Plan for the year 2001 and 2002. These plans are government's formal means through which local communities in each node are able to articulate the social and economic development priorities that they wish to see being attended to. The Integrated Development Plans have now been acknowledged as a key planning tool for all spheres of government.
These development plans, Madam Deputy Speaker, have yielded sets of priority projects for each node, for this financial year, and are being implemented through the district and local municipalities. The district municipalities are responsible for delivering these projects through the establishment of nodal delivery teams. Those delivery structures include the establishment of Programme Implementation Management Support Centres, that are attached to each district council, and are meant to provide additional support. This arrangement will enable communities to lead and determine their own development priorities.
The national and provincial spheres of government have identified a range of projects, totalling up to R1,8 billion, and these are being implemented during the current financial year.
There are additional priority projects, for which funding is still being sought, and this is being addressed through a range of other initiatives, including a formal structure for attracting focussed support from all parastatal organisations, so that we can concentrate public sector investment in the nodes.
We are also in communications with international donor agencies to ensure that the appropriate resources are redirected towards critical social, economic and institutional development projects in the nodes.
Funding is also being made available through the National Development Agency to NGOs and CBOs that will target social and economic projects within those nodes.
The government's own Special Budget Allocation for Poverty Relief and Job Creation has also been realigned to ensure that a significant proportion of these funds are applied to social and economic development initiatives in those nodes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Lindiwe Mbuyazi, IFP: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thank you, Mr President, for the elaborate answer that you have given us. My question to the honourable President is that I would love to know what more can be done to relieve the hardship of rural women through developing these nodal points in the whole of South Africa. Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: Well, let me say, Madam Deputy Speaker, when we engaged in the process of identifying these nodes, we went through an exercise to determine which of these rural areas were worst affected in terms of poverty and underdevelopment.
All of us know very well the matter that arose earlier about the incidence of poverty in our rural areas and elsewhere in the country. But there are parts of our country that are worse off than others, so in identifying the nodes we were looking for which are the worst affected areas of our country.
And we measured that also with regard to the place and the position and the role of women in this particular area, so the matter of the disempowerment of women was one of the elements. The degree and the extent of that disempowerment was one of the elements that were used in order to judge whether a particular area should be selected as a development node. Therefore, the programmes that are being instituted within those development nodes seek to address in part this issue of the emancipation and the empowerment of women, of making an impact on the lives of women as a critical measure of whether it is succeeding in our objective of addressing issues of underdevelopment and poverty.
You will therefore find that many of the projects launched in these areas have a particular focus on women, whether it is with regards to education or with regard to empowerment of women to start small business.
My wife is greatly agitated about the inefficiencies of government with regard to micro-lending, particularly where it affects black rural women, and I know that this matter is being addressed, had to be addressed.
In that context, we will focus on this important matter that honourable Mbuyazi raises. Thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mr Jankielsohn: Mr President, in February you identified QwaQwa in the municipality of Maluti a Phofung as one of these nodal areas. This announcement was welcomed in the area since the unemployment rate is about 88 per cent of which 75 per cent experience chronic hunger. The Minister of Finance indicated that this area was allocated an amount of R200 million towards what he called a basket of services. An issue of concern, however, is the capacity in the area to unpack this basket. The reason for this concern is that councillors of the former Phuthaditjhaba council illegally paid out R739, 836-00 to themselves as honoraria at the end of their terms in 2000. Some of these councillors now sit on the council that runs QwaQwa. What provisions are in place to ensure that capacity in QwaQwa and other areas is strengthened so that the money allocated to nodal growth reaches its intended target?
President Thabo Mbeki: Thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker. I had thought that the law enforcement processes were taking care of this matter to which the honourable member refers. I must confess I haven't followed up on it since I heard about it some time in last year, but we will follow up on it. Certainly we thought it was incorrect, if the information that was given was correct, that these councillors behaved in a particular way, but it is a matter that we need to follow up, because all of us are concerned that no level of government should be involved in corrupt practice.
The national government allocated funding to address the matter of capacity, that he honourable member mentioned. This is apart from the funds I have mentioned, which would be dedicated to particular projects. We are concerned about levels of capacity, especially in local government, and that is why these funds were made available, and it is important that QwaQwa, and wherever else, do get the capacity to be able to impact on the development needs of their communities.
The whole rationale behind the restructuring of the system of local government was precisely to enable local government to have the capacity to impact on this issue of the transformation of the lives of our people for the better. Therefore, certainly from the point of view of the national government, and we are in contact with the provincial governments about this matter, this important question of the need to improve the capacity of local government, particularly in the rural areas and the small towns, is a matter of particular focus. That is why the national government set aside funds specially to deal with this matter of capacity
But I am glad that the member has raised this matter with regard to QwaQwa. We need to attend to it. Thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Steven Swart, ACDP: Madam Deputy Speaker, would the Honourable President comment on the impediments encountered by the Coega Development project, which have prevented the project from as yet showing tangible economic and social results, with possibly particular reference to the withdrawal of anchor tenants such as Billiton, and raising the issue of further possible anchor tenants. Thank you.
President Thabo Mbeki: The government, Madam Deputy Speaker, is committed to the development of this project. We believe that Ngqura is very important for the development of that area in the Eastern Cape, and the Eastern Cape in general. We are therefore proceeding with all the necessary work in regard to this.
It might be important perhaps that at some point we get the Minister of Trade and Industry to give a report about this, because what I have seen in the media is a lot of propaganda about this matter, a lot of misinformation. People wage campaigns and make presentations about the project, which are quite wrong.
Certainly as a government we are proceeding with regard to this. It is a major, major project, and because it is a major project, it is of a complex nature, and involves many, many players. But certainly we will proceed with this with all necessary speed, taking into account, as I have said, the complexity of the project which involves many private sector players, involves the parastatals, involves both provincial and local government as well as national. I am quite certain that in time it will produce the results that we seek to achieve. Thanks, Deputy Speaker.
Bangilizwe Solo, ANC: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Honourable comrade President, arising from what you have just said to us, the R1,8 billion worth of projects identified by both national and provincial spheres of government for the current financial year, is a remarkable contribution that should be appreciated. We should also comment these two spheres of government for discharging their constitutional obligation to support the local spheres of government.
Is it possible for the honourable president to inform this House, which of the provinces in which these projects are being implemented, and what is the nature of such projects? Does government have the mechanism to facilitate active and meaningful participation of all provinces in the implementation of the integrated sustainable rural and urban renewal programmes?
President Thabo Mbeki: Deputy Speaker, I have the great misfortune that I am not the Minister of Local and Provincial Government. Maybe we need to swap jobs. The honourable Tony Leon says we should swap jobs. No, I am sure the Minister would be able to discuss those matters in detail.
What has happened is that national government delegated the responsibility to liase with both provincial and local government on these processes to the Minister of Provincial and Local Government. As part of the implementation of the programmes the Minister has interacted with all of the provinces and all of the Municipalities involved in those nodes.
One of the things that has happened is that the ministry has had a look at the Integrated Development Plans, the interim ones, from the municipalities, to see whether they do indeed address these development needs that were identified. And the process of further refining those integrated development programmes is continuing. The detailed question of what particular projects would take place in this particular node, and there are many of them, is I am sure a matter that the Minister can report on.
But as national government, we are very pleased that that process is proceeding with regard to all of the nodes, that there is quite a clear vision, from the point of view both of national, provincial and local government, as to where we are going, and that the resources that have been made available will be utilised to address the purposes that they are devoted to addressing.
But I am sure that the specific detail which the honourable member is asking for, how many pigs will be grown in Ntabankulu, how many chickens and whatever, is a matter that the honourable Minister Mufamadi will be able to deal with very, very adequately.
Deputy Speaker: That concludes questions addressed to the President. Thank you, Mr President.
Issued by: The Presidency, 24 October 2001
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